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Warlocks: The good, the bad, the ignorant, a pvp perspective

Tenko — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 6:15pm

First I'm going to start with an introduction of myself.  Tenko was the first character created by me on Nov 23rd 2004.  I have played her non stop since then.  I have only 1 other character that made it to 70 and 2 others to 60 (both pre BC).  I will always play my lock until i decide to not play this game any longer.  I have raided, pvp'd and now Arena.  I've been on one of the top 5's teams on the BG6 for the last 2 seasons, continuing to do well this season.  My 3's teams have finished 10th, 14th, in season 1 and 2 runnig the same comp (resto shaman, warlock, mage) and were gladiators again in season 3.  This will be an attempt  to explain whats strong about the warlock class, whats wrong and dispel the myth we are the overpowered class.

Things to keep in mind as you read this.  I play wow only to do arenas so I will not discuss PVE aspects of the warlock class or in general with the exception of Warglaives and their impact on arena.  Also my perspective is about 5's and 3's arena, 2's is glorified duels based on what classes you are fighting not what your skill elvel is.  In adition i'm really only concerned about high level arena because that is where I want a fair chance at competing. I also will not comment on WotLK changes because they are still just proposed changes and until they are implemented its impossible to see how they will play into the game.

Season 2 warlocks began a surge in almost every bracket.  2's and 3's especially and more limited representation in 5's.  This smaller the format the better warlocks were doing, this made since as warlocks were and are the strongest 1v1 class in the game.  At this point Blizzard began nerfing the class most noteably mana drain, life return and spell damage talents to the class we have today.  

Right now i'm going ot throw in my rogue rant and it has merit in my argument about the locks nerfs.  Blizzard  nerfed locks before letting the evolution of arena take care of the problem itself. Evolutions happen in arena all the time, teams are formed and other teams are formed to counter them.  Even more so people slowly adapt to playing this new "super" combos developing strategies to beat them.   Season 3 i've dubbed "season of the rogue" because blizzard waited tell after the season was over to nerf this class.  I don't know if its because they learned from what they did with warlocks or they just didn't realize what the problem was. 

In any case I believe there were 2 main reasons warlocks got nerfed (whether it was premature or the if the severity was warented is up for debate).  The first and i think the most important was "a bellow average player could play a warlock at a level that others couldn't compete with."  This in itself could be enough reason to nerf a class.  It refers to the old line "warlock face rolled his keyboard and killed me" and while this statement is obvious hyperbole it actually wasn't so far from the truth.  The second reason "warlocks were over represented in the 2's and 3's bracket." This plays into the first reason as everyone rushed to reroll locks because they were the OP class at the time and were able to play them well because the class at a basic level was simplistic; "dot, run, fear."

Now there is much more to a lock (even an SL/SL lock) than dot, run, fear.  The bigger the field, 3v3 and 5v5 the harder it becomes.  In 5's you need to know where the healers are positioning themselves so you can do damage and CC while not getting caught in the open.  You need to have be able to decide when to CS/Intercept DPS or Heals.  Its easy to spam tongues on a focus but maintaining it on the healer that isn't you focus and another caster takes a little more skill.  Fearing targets when they are LoS of their dispellers.  Even harder looking for that moment when you can single target fear the priest then aoe fear the shaman while taking out his tremor totem with your pet rendering both healers down for 6-8 seconds.  Then not spaming tongues but getting damage up on target then making sure one has tongues and the other is refeared.  These things were done by the average warlock playing in season 2 but in 2's and 3's it wasn't as necessary, just spam dots and profit against teams that couldn't dispel.  Lets not forget mana drain (which i think needed the nerf it got).

Easy mode lock was taken away not just by blizzard but a concept i mentioned earlier, evolution of arena.  lock/druid in 2's was fast becoming replaced by druid/rogue and druid/warrior.  This of course is the most logical progression.  The druid is a strong healer so why not play with a class that can do as much damage and has a MS effect (better than mana drain in most cases).  In 3's rogues and warriors made comebacks some paired with locks others paired with 2 healers.  When one class gets out of control in arena teams will always look to counter it and a locks biggest nightmare is a rogue and warrior (not 1v1 but paired with a healer is tough to beat).  The problem i have with this is the evolution of arena would have taken care of the overpopulation of locks (some nerfs probably needed but not all of them) but coupled with the nerfs continued to hurt us in 5v5 arena.

I'm not saying that locks are this piss poor class that needs to be buffed.  We have some huge issues that I will address but overall we are a good class.  We are probably strong against casters but its hard to nerf this without furthing hurting us against melee.  Our 2 biggest weakness are our pets and our inability to escape melee.  Our pets are our greatest strength and greatest weakness at the same time.  A felhunter can be used to lock down casters, keep yourself or teamates out of sheep, provide pushback against casters or a felguard who is just a beast for damage.  The problem with pets is our greatest strength -20% damage is based on them.  Felhunters have 6.6k hp unbuffed and have around 20% melee damage reduction.  Intercept + MS + Whirlwind + HS can equal a dead pet before your healer even blinked.  Even worse is when you take so much damage that just to keep you up a direct healer (paladin/shaman) can't spare a flash to keep your pet alive.  This times 2 and the "god like" warlock is nothing more than a 0 armor wearing pansy that can do anything but through up dots.  Felguards suffer the same problem but from casters, shatter combo + a little damage = dead pet and we suffer the same problems.

Melee escape is one spell on a 2 minute cooldown.  It does give us an okay amount of health and removes melee from our face for 3 seconds (really only 1.5 because of the global cooldown).  Against warriors best used to clear MS and give your healers a chance to get us up to full.  The biggest problem with it though is even if it is not trinketed a warrior can just intercept back and rogues have 2 options: shadowstep or sprint.  We can't give our healers a break from damage save every 2 minutes.  Enhancement shamans will frost shock  to slow you down and give them time to catch up.  Ret paladins probably suffer the most from deathcoil but they are almost always paired with other melee with movement imparing effects.  There is no way around the pounding from melee that you will take.  This is even more important now with the creation of the "cleave" comp featuring a variety of triple melee dps ready to rip warlocks and their pets apart.  Another huge problem with the melee issue is pushback....once 2-3 melee start pounding on you at high rate of speed the best you can hope for is 70% pushback for 1 spell and 50% pushback for fear....you have to deal with that + the chaining of interupts on you durring the pushback.

These 2 major problems are not something we can outplay or learn to get around.  They are part of the game and a reason warlocks are no longer a prevelant class.  Now it should be mentioned warlocks made a bit of a comeback w/ OP rogues in euro comp but that was shortly followed by cleave teams designed to rip through euro comps.  I'm not saying its impossible to play a class in high level arena but it gets more and more difficult with each passing season.  The community knows our weaknesses which they were already figuring out while we continued to get nerfed leaving us in the state we are in today.  

I'm perfeclty open to the fact that we need to be nerfed against casters just a little bit. Tongues probably needs some sort of a cooldown, maybe 3-6 seconds so it becomes something more skill based to apply, although given the amount of resists to shadow spells some talent that if it gets resisted cooldown is reset so we can still apply it.  I feel with the buffing of shaman totems and every other healing class having dispels that  fear is right where it needs to be.  Double CS from a feldom might be overpowered but it also leaves warlocks with only one pet so maybe its a reasonable tradeoff.  If you somehow gave us melee protection we could go with less stamina on our gear furthing helping out casters against us.  Currently i wear almost 3k more HP than the mage on my 5's team but i can't last nearly as long as he can while being focused.

Side notes, I'm okay with demonolgy being our PvP spec.  Yes there is some room for UA in 3's and 5's but its small.  4 dps teams have fallen by the wayside on our BG, i dunno if this is true of others BG's.  Everyone has their nitch in arena and i don't think this game will ever be so balanced that any class in any spec can compete in high level arenas. 

-Tenko (Korgath)

 

 

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Re: Warlocks: The good, the bad, the ignorant, a pvp perspective

Anonymous — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 7:04pm

TLDR

Re: Warlocks: The good, the bad, the ignorant, a pvp perspective

Anonymous — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 7:20pm

I really don't agree with you, every class feels that they have the right to bitch about how their class is underpowered. Warriors bitch about rogues and our 1v1 viability but we're always strong in PvP so we have no right to bitch, rogues have gone from insanely op with AR/prep to slightly less insanely op with SHS, PvE rogues are basically a different class all together.

Anyways, my point being that warlocks have always been represented in top arena and always will be, with fel armor being immune to dispel you have perm 20% extra healing. Top team in 2v2 is warlock druid it's easy to learn and easy as fuck to win with. Warrior/warlock/druid just won MLG and is probably one of the best setups in 3v3 atm. The problem with warlocks is that anyone can play them and do well, much like a warrior. For high end arena you need to be exceptionally good at the class, only a few warlocks I've ever played with dispel with fel puppy or manually use all their abilities. Even fewer warlocks know how to burst.

Warlocks have always owned almost everything in PvP and will continue to do so, they're good right now and with the WOTLK changes you'll most likely be the most dominant class for the first few seasons.

-Manic

Re: Warlocks: The good, the bad, the ignorant, a pvp perspective

Tenko — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 7:50pm

I actually like to use facts when i claim things so lets look at some of the facts of your statements. Currently in the 2v2 areana the front page has 3 warlocks on it, one is priest lock, the other is a druid lock but half of the games played have been druid/warrior on it so he didn't do it himself and played the lower level games (i know this b/c its cb and his lock and i talk to both of them), the other team name is hotz and dotz but has only a druid or priest on it so i assume its a lock unless its a play on words. do you want to know the other 3 combos, warrior/druid, rogue/druid, hunter/druid and maybe one other. Why because druid/lock should never beat any of those 3 teams.

MLG 3v3 comp was DWL that won and its a very strong combo and a lot of them are on the top of arena right now....but give it 2-3 weeks and arena will evolve methods and strats to beat this combo. 5v5 I don't want to talk about 5v5 on our BG b/c there are 3 teams playing right now that are worth a damn and only one of them has a lock. So lets look at SK ratings for teams already over 2200 (top of the arena boards which is what i'm talking about). Over 2200 on SK at the moment one team comprises 5% of the teams over 2200 has a lock, all other combos do not. Over 2k euro comp (flavor that will not be as popular w/ cheat nerf) accounts for 9% then 2 other combos making up 3% and 3%. Then lets take a look at BG9 there are onlt 2 locks playing full time on teams on the front page and 4 others playing half or less of the games.

Also you're bringing up an issue that i covered that warlocks WERE easy to play for most people but that has been nerfed. The issue is we can't do anything about our weakness to melee so no matter how good i am i will always be at the mercy of 2 melee pounding me a new one.

Re: Warlocks: The good, the bad, the ignorant, a pvp perspective

Anonymous — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 8:37pm

druid war should never lose to warlock druid?....

What? If the other team is good this game is extremely difficult we played hotz n dotz last night and it was almost a 30 minute game with the warlock doing nearly 200k more damage than me. before Maimage and Footwerk took number one spot warlock druid had it for the first few weeks. IT is an insanely strong combo and it beats a lot of druid warriors.

Warlock/Warrior/Druid didn't just come out of the framework it's been around forever I have friend who ran it S1 S2. Yes warlocks are weak to the over scaling melee class. Warrior rogues and hunters are the 3 most played classes in WoW so it makes sense that they have a higher distribution in high end arena. Fact is warlocks get melee trained, double melee is hard to beat as a clothie? no shit, double melee is supposed to wreck warlocks, that's the goal of the team. However we ran warrior/warlock druid for 20 games last night at 1950 playing only double melee, and the only one we lost two was rogue/hunter/druid. Warlocks have a shit load of control and you still put out 95% of your damage while you're getting raped, which no other class can do.

What do you want to hear, that you're not as strong as druid warrior? or that rogues are overpowered? Druid warrior is popular purely because it allows so many mistakes. You can fuck up multiple times and recover, that's why people play it. Rogues put out a shit load of damage and are ridiculous, blizz doesn't seem to care.

Warlocks were insanely dominant the first few seasons, melee scales better and is catching up. You'll be stupidly OP again in WoTLK.

FACTS:
Warlock druid is the 3rd most played 2v2 combo, higher than shaman warrior and priest rogue. (above 2200)
Warlock Warrior Druid is the 2nd most played 3v3 combo, higher than every double melee (above 2200)

I don't understand what you're arguing or the huge massive wall of text trying to explain it. Don't try and make me look like an idiot by citing "facts." Go to sk's page and sort by 2v2 and 3v3 you can see that what I'm saying is correct. Now you may argue that 2v2 is skill less and the only true test is 5v5 and if you want to look at it that way then yes, you're not represented well in 5v5.

The fact that you lose to double melee is probably based off of the fact that you have a stationary healer who is easy as fuck to lock down and less to do with the fact that you are a warlock. You run a wonky ass combo and you do it better than anyone else in the world. But every combo has it's weakness, for example double melee gets ass trained vs shaman paladin warrior which I bet you guys do just fine against. Arena has become cookie cutter, it sucks but that's how it is.

-Manic

Re: Warlocks: The good, the bad, the ignorant, a pvp perspective

Anonymous — Thu, 07/24/2008 - 8:42pm

My grammar disappears when I get frustrated, sorry.

Re: Warlocks: The good, the bad, the ignorant, a pvp perspective

Tenko — Fri, 07/25/2008 - 1:58am

more than half of what you're writing i'm not responding too because in my original post i said my perspective was from 5's and 2's should be removed from the game. I don't care if we are a strong combo it 2's the fact is an equally skilled warrior/druid will beat a warlock/druid everytime and thats why the bracket is stupid, class comp matters nothing else. The only true test of skill in that bracket is beating a mirror. WotLK i'm glad you can see the future which is why again in my orginal post i'm only dealing with what is in the game now.

As far as warlock damage you're talking about the wrong bracket again. you can go sL/sl in 2's and 3's and put out a lot of damage (mainly because priests aren't as prevelant). But what i'm talking about is 5's where you run around w/ a pet that has 7k health and watch it get gibbed and a priest uses double dispel to stop all that dot damage. And i hate to tell you this rogues/warriors and hunters (as long as their target isn't on them and even when it is it seems now) put out damage no matter who is on them, they don't suffer from pushback except for steady shot. Infact warrior damage increases do to the massive influx of rage they gain.

And i never said i lose to double melee. I said warlocks get trained and have no chance to get into fights. That doesn't mean that we don't beat it, infact with a few exceptions, double rogue or newly discovered rogue+bm hunter we do just fine against double melee...except for the ones we can't control for the first 20 seconds of the fight while they gib someone.

Gentlemen's Club - A World of Warcraft guild on the US Korgath Server